Mike Watt Few contemporary artists command more respect than Ian MacKaye and Mike Watt, who are among the founding fathers of the hardcore music community and the Do-It-Yourself ethic it fostered. MacKaye emerged as a leading figure in the Washington, D.C.-area hardcore punk scene in the early 1980s, first in the band Teen Idles, then later with the legendary Minor Threat. Embrace and Fugazi. Mike Watt influenced a generation of musicians who followed as a result of his work with the Minutemen, fIREHOSE and his various current solo projects. In Part II of this StarPolish "Ask the Artist" interview with these ground-breaking musicians, conducted by StarPolish CEO Vivek J. Tiwary, MacKaye and Watt discuss keeping bands together, putting together a tour, and finding the right visual elements to complement the music. To read Part I of this interview, click here.

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KEEPING IT TOGETHER

TIWARY: Another question we had was about keeping bands together. Do you have any advice?

WATT: I was asked to do this thing called Class of '77, in December -- Brendan, who used to run The Masque, put out a book about the old days and they asked me and Georgie [Hurley] to do some Minutemen songs -- and we just did it as a duo because, what, are you gonna stuff a pillow under someone's shirt and bounce around? It would just seem ridiculous.

MACKAYE: And disrespectful. You can't fool with that, man.

TIWARY: One of the things about you guys is that you've been around for so long, and been through so many changes in the music climate both culturally as well as the industry. What are some things that you've done to keep your groups together -- or do you not worry about that? And if the group is having difficulty staying together, is that a sign that maybe it's time to think about putting a new one together?

MACKAYE: I just don't think like that. The Fugazi thing, straight up, is that we are a band. The four of us, we love each other, it's something that's really important to us. The band is really important to us -- it's central to us. At the same time, if anyone in the band leaves, that's the end of the band. If you think about it, if everybody has their hand on the eject button then they can feel like they can ride a little bit longer. I use this analogy a lot: Imagine there are four of you in a car and the cat that's driving is out of control. You might just want to bail the hell out when you get to a stoplight. But if everyone has their own steering wheel and brakes and gas pedals, they might feel like they have a little more control in the situation. So, in terms of everyone having an equal voice in Fugazi, I think everyone feels like they have some control over the situation, and if they're unhappy they can leave. And if they leave, that's the end of the band. They know that; everyone knows that. And if we get bored, than that's the end of the band, too, because if we're bored, you can only imagine how people watching us are going to feel.

But I don't really think in terms of [whether] I'd get another group; I don't think about things like that at all. This is what I do, and this is what I'm doing, and I don't really know if there's a correct way of doing anything. All I know is, this is the way that we have done it. So, in terms of Watt, I go see Watt play when he comes through town, and sometimes he's with some people and sometimes he's with other people. But I never think that's not the right way to do it. I always think that's the way Watt does it, and that's what he's bringing to the table, and it's an incredible thing to see. If you had the opportunity to see the opera -- I saw it once with [Joe] Baiza playing guitar and once with [Nels] Kline playing guitar, and they were both incredible and completely different. And so for me, there's something to be said for variation, and there's something to be said for keeping things straight up, the same way, and staying true to the same four members. But there's no rule. The main thing is like, where is it coming from? Is it coming from a good place or a bad place? And if it's coming from a good place I'm interested, and if it's from a bad place I'm not.

TIWARY: Watt, you've got some interesting experiences also, because you've done records like Ballhog or Tugboat, where you were the lead guy and each song had different lineups of people. So do you have any specific advice on keeping those types of units together?

WATT: I wanted to test a theory. My theory was [if] the bass player knew the song, anyone could come in and play on it. Basically, it was a test of that theory. Music for me was a very personal thing. I wasn't really a musician -- I wanted to be with my friend, and I lost my friend. So music, bands, and this kind of thing [are] very strange for me. I've lost my personal connection in that way -- the guy I grew up with, the guy who inspired me -- so it's bizarre for me on that level. So I put my name on bands nowadays mainly, not as an ego thing, but to take responsibility, so you know who to blame. The Ballhog thing, that was a little theory I tested out -- I called it the "wrestling record" because it was like me putting folks in the ring with me. It was like it was a petri dish to see what would grow out of it for a tune. A lot of those cats didn't even know the tune before they came in the studio -- it was right then and there. They're kind of experiments in music on the moment, and I don't give them a chance to be bands because I think I'm still pretty much affected by the loss of my friend, my original muse. I can't expect everybody to come from that same place -- like Ian says, there's no way to do it, because we're all coming from different places. And we're dynamic; we're moving and changing, and I think these days I see me as a guy who tries to enable situations instead of putting together the band.

It might seem a strange kind of thing, but that's kind of where I'm at. I do have a hankering to be part of a band sometimes, but then I have this other tendency to say you gotta put yourself in a situation that's going to test you and try to bring out the best in you so you don't rest on old [accomplishments]. Like, the first Minutemen record -- to me, that was a victory, but if I'm going to go forward or grow, I can't always be resting on that -- I gotta put myself in a situation where I might slip and fall. That's where I see myself. So I put myself in these tentative things on purpose, I think, to know I'm awake. I really have a fear of letting down the tradition of D. Boon, who was not a sleepwalker - well, he actually was, but that was at nighttime -- he didn't sleepwalk in the day, or with his guitar, or with his singing. I really feel a debt to that. So I put myself in situations that are kind of scary. There's something really secure about having a band. When I was with the Minutemen and I was on stage with D. Boon, there's no way you could be afraid with a man like that playing next to you. You can't believe the confidence that came out of him. He had something -- not like an egomaniac, but the man was sure of [letting] people know what he wanted to do. And that was very infectious, and I got to rely on that. I still feel a huge void, so I just thought, why not exploit that all the way, and always put myself in a scary thing, and bring cats on each time, put myself in a nightmare project, like I don't have a lot of experience doing this? Yeah, it's always gonna be Watt and his bass, but I try to make the situation kind of panicky in a way for me. Does that make any sense?

 

Fugazi

MACKAYE: Totally…

WATT: A lot of it is insecurity on my part. I don't know if I would recommend that to a young man starting music.

MACKAYE: I would recommend it to anybody who feels compelled to do it that way. If they don't, then whatever's gonna work for them. I have to tell you, it would be hard for me to imagine you in another band. Just because… you're right, basically, what you can bring to the table, you have a really dominant…When you're on stage, you're working hard, but what sets you apart from everything else, [are] the people you're working with, the contrast of the different players -- it really gives a sense of, "Wow, this is what Watt is bringing to the stage, this is where he's at."

But I don't feel like it's a lesser or greater approach than being in a band. I think that in terms of being in a band, having been in a band for 15 years now, there are times when it would be really easy for us to say, "Well, we're kind of done with the creating, and now we just have this vast catalogue we can draw upon and just use that as our selling point and just go play." But you can only fool the people for so long. There are plenty of other bands that tried to do this, too. And after awhile, you may still have the numbers, but you don't have any heart; no one gives a damn. And, if that's the case, then it just becomes this really grim proceeding. So, we're constantly challenging and questioning ourselves about whether or not we're still in construction work still. That's all -- are we still building things? That's what we need to know, because if you're not building, then you'll start taking it apart sooner or later -- things will start to degrade. So we're always double-checking ourselves. Every time we practice, a good half-hour of that practice or more is us talking about whether we're building something, and we're constantly checking up on that.

And that's a challenge unto itself, because you don't want to fool yourself into believing that you don't have to work anymore. You have to keep pedaling, you always have to keep moving forward and you have to continue to challenge yourself musically. So whenever we put out a record and someone says "Wow this record's different, or "This record's weird," I think, well that's a success, 'cause at least they noticed that it's evolution. We still have the opportunity to change. And people say, "What's up, why does your music keep changing?" I think, write your name on a piece of paper, put your signature on [it] and then go back in 15 years and look at the way you signed your name then. I hope it changed. That's the magical repetition. But also it's evolution, natural.

WATT: There's something about the machine I work that's supposed to be very nurturing. The bass is like the womb that's supposed to make it all come together. But I come from this tradition, being a Minuteman, where I'm very assaultive; it's hard to wash that out of me, I can't. I can't take the traditional role of the bass player. It's a really bizarre thing that happened to me, but this is what I have, so I recognize it. It's kind of trippy, too, because bass guys, you look good making the other cats look good. So in a way, [you] kind of check some uber ego…(everyone laughs). I might have, trying to rise up and overcome me... See, D. Boon's mother made me play the bass. I didn't even know what it really was. I didn't even know it had bigger strength, but for me it was the luckiest thing that could have happened.

MUSIC'S VISUAL SIDE

TIWARY: Shifting gears a little bit, another question people asked was about the visual elements of music. In particular, the cover art on all the records that you guys have put out over the years have been very notable -- lots of great work on several records and seven-inches. How did you think about the visual element of things? Was it something you were very involved in? And where do you see that going now, since it involves more than just record cover art and T-shirts - it's videos, and websites and other avenues?

MACKAYE: I've always had a pretty big hand in all the designs of anything I've ever been a part of, because I do have a sense of the way, aesthetically and visually, things are being presented. I like to know. I want to know, and I want to make sure that it makes sense to me. Every once in a while I'll come to a town and see a flyer for our band that is just so ridiculous that I can't believe it, because it's so misrepresentative - the idea that you come to a town [where] Fugazi's playing, and there's a cartoon of a really busty woman driving a hot rod. It's just like, that's insane. But terms of the record, I worked hard on that music and it means a lot to me, and I wouldn't want it to be packaged in a way that I feel is not consistent with the way I feel about the music. But we never put out T-shirts, so I don't have anything to say about that, and we never made videos, so I don't have anything to say about that. Obviously, we made the movie, and yeah, we had our sleeves rolled up so deep in that that I must have lost a couple years of my life working on that damn thing. I would say it's pretty central, because how you're being presented, or how you're being represented, is a detail that most people let go of, and that's what comes back and bites you on the ass almost every time.

TIWARY: Did you ever think of any song that might be good for a video?

MACKAYE: No, I've never been interested in videos at all. Not to kiss Mike's ass, but the only videos I ever really like anyway were… the Minutemen had a great "King of the Hill" video; that's a great video. But generally speaking, as a form, it's not something I've never been interested in at all… Because the thing is, when I listen to music I make pictures in my head. I definitely don't want someone doing it for me.

WATT:We looked at 'em like flyers, and MTV seemed like this new kind of telephone pole. But as far as our artwork, and even our video in a way, they're kind of like one of your songs, so I think they should be as challenging as one of your songs. For me, especially in the old days of punk, there were a lot of art people at those gigs -- that's where I met my best friend, Raymond Pettibone. He's very provocative, and I've been very honored to collaborate and do things like this with him. I don't know if art is always for really interpreting things, interpreting meaning -- I think it's more for releasing meaning, and Raymond was always really good at that. And D. Boon was a painter, so a lot of Minutemen had D. Boon paintings and a lot of his personality was out in that.

MACKAYE: Did he paint Project Mersh? That's a great cover.

WATT: Yeah, he did Mersh. For me, when I saw a D. Boon painting, it was just like a D. Boon song - a very personal thing. When you saw it, you knew it was coming from that band, just like one of their songs. The connection was there with the identity of the band in the music.

TIWARY: What about websites?

MACKAYE: The Dischord website, I was certainly pretty instrumental in the design of it because I have aesthetic consideration that I like to see. A lot of times I look on a website and it's just so hideous and unusable and I don't know why people want to make things so difficult all the time. I always just like things to be clean and simple, and let the content…. For instance, the Dischord site, what's supposed to be interesting is the bands, not the Web site. I have a philosophy in terms of advertising -- and if you ever look at Dischord ads you'll see this - I believe in advertising with no adjectives. That's my trip. You'll never see an ad that I've ever sanctioned that says, "This is good." I'm just not gonna use adjectives, because for me it's more about saying, "This exists," and you can decide whether it's good or not. I'm not gonna take responsibility for that. Obviously, if we're making it and we're selling it, then we think it's good. We don't need to tell you it's good -- take a listen to it. We made it available at a reasonable price, and if you want to check it out, great, and if you don't, I don't care. It's not oxygen and it's not water. It's just what we do, and if you want to check it out, cool.

In terms of advertising, I'm really sensitive about the kind of devices that people use; I think it's really sometimes tawdry, and I just can't stand it. It always makes me feel terrible when I read a press release about a band -- and the band themselves, ostensibly, were a part of putting it [out] -- and it says something like, "This breathtaking band, they're geniuses and they just bring the most incredible music to you, and you better hang on, you're about to have your head blown off." To hell with all that nonsense. So that's the way I approach the website too, it's just like, here's an area on this Internet thing where if you want to do some research and find a particular record or person in bands and find out what other bands they've been in, if you're curious about it, here's a way to get that information. And if you want to check it out, here's a way to buy the record. Bam - that's it, no bullshit.

WATT: I like 'em to load fast. I don't know so much about twirling things so much. But basically you're working with the same tools [as] Virgil and Dante and Milton. You gotta come up with some content, and some of this stuff, it seems it's more about eye candy. That's sort of like the glossy magazine in the 7-11 -- how long is that gonna be in the bathroom for essential reading, or is it just gonna be at a doctor's office. Of course, my website that's on my 'puter, I don't use a webmaster, so to me it's almost like a total connection with the fanzine days, so I try to make mine with those kind of ethics -- a lot of personality, and not really having to live up to the guys - Al -- putting out Flipside; I don't think he was worried about having the same look as Rolling Stone. That's kind of where I'm coming from. Sometimes the more things change, the more they stay the same. Not everybody's got T1 connections and all that kind of stuff, so I would like it to load fast and give folks some…I use mine for tour spiels and very personal stuff.

 

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