Puddle of Mudd

When your debut album sells more than five million copies, you know that the expectation levels for your next album are going to be set very high. That was the situation confronting the four members -- Wesley Scantlin (vocals, guitar), Paul Phillips (guitar), Douglas Ardito (bass) and Greg Upchurch (drums) -- of Puddle of Mudd as they prepared to launch their new album late last fall.

But while a lot of bands fall victim to the so-called sophomore slump, that particular pitfall seems to have evaded the guys in PoM, as their new Flawless/Geffen album, Life on Display, is doing well, with the first single, "Away From Me," sitting atop the rock charts. While much of the recent attention has been focused on lead singer Wes Scantlin's antics high-profile dates, publicly trashing Fred Durst, and a recent drunken performance that led to his arrest for public intoxication and disorderly conduct -- the band is apparently weathering the firestorm and fallout as they continue their current tour.

Shortly after the new album's release, StarPolish editorial director James K. Willcox caught up with Puddle of Mudd drummer Greg Upchurch to talk about the band's success, selling five million albums, and the specter of Fred Durst.

For more information about the band, visit their website at: www.puddleofmudd.com.

To hear audio streams of the group's song "Heel Over Head," click these links:

Real Audio, click here

Windows Media, click here

The Fred Thing

STARPOLISH: I know that it's become a bone of contention, but the band was really launched when Fred Durst got a copy of Wes' tape and signed the band to his label. The question I have is whether that's made it a bit tougher for you guys to be taken on your own merits, because Fred has become something of a lightning rod. Has there been any negative feedback?

PHILLIPS: That would be ridiculous, but I understand what you're saying, cause that's how kids are.  I'll tell you what: we don't sound anything like Limp Bizkit, do we?  I don't listen to Limp Bizkit, contrary to popular belief.  [Fred is] the president of the label;  he's a smart enough guy who said, " I'm going to sign a band who's a rock band." There's no rapping, there's no DJ, and it kind of stops there;  I haven't seen the guy in a year. We did the whole record, and I never saw him.  He was able to help a young band out, but that's about the end of it.  I know he's notoriously known as a bad dickhead dude, but I've never seen that side.  I'm not going to say he isn't, because I've heard stories myself, but from my [perspective], I've maybe only talked to the guy five times in my life.  It's kind of like Jimmy Iovine, the president of Interscope -- he doesn't come down to your studio and you never see the motherfucker, he's a ninja.

STARPOLISH: There's a lot of talk about a previous version of the band existing, and when Wes got his songs into Fred's hands, the old band went away and Fred sort of put a new band together...

UPCHURCH:  Well, Fred didn't put the band together. Doug was an intern at Interscope and he met Wes there whenever Wes came into town, and it just kind of [evolved]...

STARPOLISH: Well, what I am getting at was that bands typically come together because people live in the same town, they share an interest in music and start gigging when they are in their teens -- and that didn't happen here. And your situation is even a little different, because you replaced someone who was in the band. So I was just wondering if that made it a little tougher for you in terms of joining the band, as opposed to the way that most people do it where first you're buds, then you hang out, yand ou start playing instruments and five years later you get your record deal.

UPCHURCH: Well, I guess it's different, but I'm a drummer so it's a lot easier for me as a musician, because drummers can do that -- there's a shortage of good drummers in LA, so if you're a good drummer, move the fuck to LA!  I've been constantly gigging with different bands; this is my fourth record deal. I've played with Eleven, I've played with Chris Cornell, I toured Europe in 96.  Not everyone has the band [experience you mentioned]. That doesn't happen these days very often. Linkin Park, they're fucking huge, those guys didn't grow up together. The music industry kind of changed a little bit.  So I don't think it affects that at all because I get along with these guys so well -- we are all the same age, we all listened to the same things growing up, and we all have the same things in common.

STARPOLISH: But you seem to be the only Tom Waits fan.

UPCHURCH:  Yeah, I'm a huge Waits fan. I'm the only person who likes him; everyone else doesn't get it.  But I knew whenever I joined this band it wasn't the most normal way of joining the band.

STARPOLISH: In terms of making a decision like that, what was it about the band that attracted you?

UPCHURCH:  It was a rock band.  At that time, there were two other bands that called me looking for a drummer -- there was a band called The Hours, and Pete Yorn. And Puddle of Mudd was definitely hands down what I wanted to do, because I got the chance to be in a rock band.  I'm a rock drummer -- I hit hard, I play loud and I'm obnoxious, so Pete Yorn wasn't the gig for me. So it was a good thing for me to do this, because I heard it and I liked it.  I didn't know it was going to be a huge success; you don't know that going into a band, especially living in Los Angeles and the way the music industry was at that time-- there wasn't any rock band on the radio in 1999.

STARPOLISH: Well, it seemed to have worked out; the first album sold 5 million records.

UPCHURCH:  That was very shocking to all of us; no one expects that.

Reaching Success

STARPOLISH: That's something I also wanted to ask you about.  What is that like?  It's obviously something that people think about or dream about, but when it actually happens...

UPCHURCH:  All it did really, for me, was that I got a new car.  I bought my first car I've ever bought; I've been a broke musician all my life. And I moved out of my apartment into a house, because I've been in the same one-bedroom apartment for 10 years.  I now have a four-bedroom house, which is pretty sweet, so I have a place to jam, and I get to tour for a living and be a musician.  That's all it does. It gives me the ability to be a musician and pay my rent.  If you think I'm rich, you are fucking out of your mind.  When I was a kid, I thought if you were on the radio or on TV you were rich, but I realize now that is not the truth.  It's not about the money to me; I've never been rich, and I've never been around wealth.  I've always been middle class, except when I lived on my own.  My family was middle class, we had a decent little house in the country and it was great.  I never really wanted anything more than that.  I just wanted security and I wanted to do it through playing drums and that's basically what's happening.  If I die tomorrow, I've achieved everything I thought I would do.

STARPOLISH: Do you think that there are unrealistic expectation levels for a lot of emerging artists, particularly when they see the extravagant lifestyles on shows like MTV Cribs? Isn't success for a musician being able to support yourself doing something you love?

UPCHURCH:  A lot of that is hip-hop and R&B shit -- you don't see a lot of rock bands doing it, but I don't watch a lot of MTV.  I think a lot of it is image; you want to have this image that you're larger than life, which is not the case for us.  Nobody has an extravagant lifestyle in this band.  Wesley (Scantlin) doesn't even own a house, and he's got a son that he supports and it kind of gives him fuel; everything's about his son for him.  He's doing this all so his son will have an education, and be able to go to college.

STARPOLISH: But that's what any father wants for his kid, so it's not exactly the rock star life.

UPCHURCH:  He's not spending money stupidly, he's got a good head on his shoulders and he knows he has to take care of his baby.

The Pressure of Success

STARPOLISH: One of the things that almost has to happen when you have an album as successful as your first album is that the expectation level must be set pretty high for the follow-up album. Did that create a lot of pressure going into the studio?  Does that enter into your mind when you go into a studio and you're working with people, or is it the same as it always was in terms of creating, writing, and performing good songs?

UPCHURCH:  I was never concerned or stressed out, because you do what you do.  If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  I know that sounds strange, but if it worried me or bothered me I'd be a stressed fucking freak and it's just not me. I'm just so happy and proud of this record, the new one; at least I can say I'm happy with it.  If it doesn't sell, it doesn't sell, but I know that as a music fan and a listener and a musician, I'm proud of it and I'm happy with it.  I think this record defines the band way more than the first one because we went right into the studio after being together for touring constantly for two years almost, playing each night together, and I think it affected the recording of the record.

STARPOLISH: Did the factthat you were playing so much together make you feel that when you went back into the studio, you a were maybe a little bit of a different band?

UPCHURCH:  I think so... I definitely think so; we became really good friends.  I was the last one to join so I was the new guy, but that wore off really quickly because once we were on tour it became a band.  I know it's a strange way for a band to exist but we're all very humble with the success that we've had, or should I say grateful.  No one in this band thinks we are set for the rest of our lives.

STARPOLISH: So you're still hungry?

UPCHURCH:  Oh yeah.  To me, this is our first record; that's the way I look at it.  You always approach it as your first album... you tour on it for two years because with the way the Internet is and downloading and stuff, you just gotta tour, tour, tour.

Touring's the Thing

STARPOLISH: The way the business is set up, the reality for most bands is that's where they are going to make the most money.

UPCHURCH:  Touring, sure. If this is going out to a lot of kids looking for record labels, it's really tough right now because they're laying people off left and right at the labels. The downloading is really hurting the industry.  It's not like I'm saying, poor me, woe is me, but I feel bad for the young kids trying to get a record deal, cause the label isn't going to take the gamble, whereas three or four years ago, they would have said, "OK, we'll give you a shot."  It's really tough right now.  They think they're hurting the rich people:  "I don't feel guilty downloading this cause all the suits and the ties in the office, they're not the ones hurting."

STARPOLISH: So you think it has an affect on bands that haven't signed yet?

UPCHURCH:  Yes, that's who it's affecting, because now they don't have enough money to produce new music.

STARPOLISH: It's a double-edge sword, though, because to those bands it's a way to get their music out there, because radio isn't playing a lot of new music, or they're playing pretty tight set lists. A lot of the up-and-coming bands really look at the Internet [as a tool], and they get used to sharing music with fans. There's also a distinction between a band who has a major-label album out and a band that has an indie album  out, and all they want to do is expand their fan base. 

UPCHURCH:  It is a double-edge sword.  It's great for new bands; it's wonderful for new bands.  I didn't have that when I was growing up. We didn't have the Internet to put new music up on when I was growing up.  It's great to get all the fans, but what good does it do you unless you are touring and you're gonna play in front of them?  It's great that people love your music and listen to it, but if you want to do it for a career, it's not gonna happen.  I hate to say it, but I'm just being honest. I mean, I can barely support myself on a major label, much less having my music on the Internet for some people to hear.

STARPOLISH: The expectation is that at some point, fans who are able to hear your music are converted into fans who buy your music and support the band, and that's either seeing you guys live when you come into town, or buying your CDs and merch -- or both.

UPCHURCH:  That's what it all comes from -- it all comes from the live show.  That's the most important part of the whole deal, the touring and the performance, because you really have to put on a good show to make people go and spend the money to buy the CD.  Our CD is going to be on sale for like $8.99 because Universal cut their retail price down.  $8.99 is not a lot to pay for a CD -- that's how much I was paying for cassettes.

CD Pricing

STARPOLISH: I don't know whether the move is too little, too late, but one of the complaints that we've been hearing is that an $18 retail price for a CD is tough when you can buy a DVD with a full movies, bonus scenes and a soundtrack, for a dollar or two more. It will be interesting to see if CD sales will shoot up at all.

UPCHURCH: Well I think they should've done this a long time ago, but suing the fans or the people who are doing it is not going to help.  I read the paper everyday, and I read [about the RIAA lawsuits] in the business section of the LA Times, and said, I can't believe they are suing fans of music.  It's insane.  You don't sue them and then lower your prices -- [the fans] will just not give a fuck about you, because they'll be, "Fuck you, you just sued us!"  You've also got to make the packaging more interesting -- we have an enhanced CD so you put it in your computer and there's a 20 minute interview with all of us. You have to give them something more, and I have no problem with that because I'm a music fan and music listener, and I want as much as I can get for what I'm paying -- and who wouldn't?

STARPOLISH: I'm older than you, so I remember when I started out buying albums, and the cool thing was that you'd take the album home and you'd open it up and you'd get this great poster along with the record. My bedroom walls were covered in them.  There was also all that great album artwork. With CDs, you've reduced the size of the artwork and packaging and you don't get a poster, but the price of the goods has continued to go up. Plus now there are tons of things competing for people's money -- you have DVDs, and videogames and all this other stuff... Personally, I think they should've lowered the prices earlier and they should've come out with music online that people could have purchased at a reasonable price instead of just trying to prevent it from happening. They should've tried to make it a business quicker.

UPCHURCH:  I agree.  Suing people is not the way to do it -- you're just pissing people off.  They think they're hurting the suits and ties of the business, they're not, they're hurting all the people who do the leg work for the labels, because we have people who are reps -- A&R reps -- and who have other jobs don't make a lot of money.  Those are the people who are losing their jobs.  And whenever they lower the retail price, that affects retail -- the Towers and Virgins -- more than anybody. Tower Records and Virgin Records are holding onto their asses right now because there is no one in their fucking stores. But I love going and buying CDs, I've never downloaded a song in my life on the computer, and I love going to CD shops and looking through them and buying the CD... and the smell -- remember the smell of albums?

STARPOLISH: It was a whole experience.  You'd go in there and hopefully the guy behind the counter was a total music fan and he saw you buying one album and he'd say, "Man, if you like this band, then you should check this band out," and you'd get turned on to some new music.  That doesn't happen in a lot of those stores.  Ameoba, on the West Coast, is that kind of store.  So those kind of stores are great, but most stores that do the volume right now, you could just as well be shopping in a clothing store.

UPCHURCH:  It's like Best Buy.  People buy at Best Buy and Target and Wal-Mart and you got some 60-year-old women behind the counter, she doesn't know what the fuck you're doing.

STARPOLISH: That's if you don't have any curses on your record so Wal-Mart will stock it.

UPCHURCH:  Everybody has their clean version.

Life on Display

The New Album

STARPOLISH: I did want to talk about the new album; I heard the first single, and just a bit of the new album, but it seems like it has a little bit of a darker edge to it. What do you think fans should expect from the new album?

UPCHURCH:  I think it's more of ... we've grown up a lot since that last record.  It's so hard to describe music, but it's almost like... when I say darker, it's not really dark like evil, but it's more like Alice in Chains kind of dark.  It's kind of taking that void the Seattle scene left, because when Nirvana came out it blew everything else out of the fucking water, everything before that didn't even exist.  Nothing did that to that scene, you know, nothing came along and just [killed it] or caused it to commit suicide; it kind of faded away, nothing came and just knocked it out of the water. And then there was this huge void in the 90s where it just became Alanis Morrisette and Jewel, and there was nothing else out there.  So basically with this record we are just trying to bring back some of that history of American rock "n" roll.

STARPOLISH: How do you describe music?  You hear all these bizarre new descriptions, nu-grunge and other labels Do you just call it rock "n" roll?

UPCHURCH: Rock "n" roll, that's what I call it.  I don't know what nu-metal and nu-rock, or whatever the fuck it is, is -- to me it's just a rock band, very simply. I hate all the labels; I hate labeling music..

STARPOLISH: It makes it easier to sell it, easier to put on radio, but it doesn't mean anything to most people.

UPCHURCH:  God I hate labels on music.

STARPOLISH: One of the other things I noticed that I thought was cool was that to kick off the new album, you were playing shows at smaller venues, like the House of Blues.  As a musician, is it hard to make the transition from playing bigger sort of venues and then going to smaller clubs? Or do you dig the more intimate venues?

UPCHURCH:  It's easy, I love playing in the small clubs.  First of all, to me, 2,000 people is not small; I look at 50 people as small, but that's the way I look at it. I just like being able to see the fans' faces. When we were doing those Korn dates in arenas and shit, they're a hundred yards away from me, I can't even see them -- I wear glasses and I can't wear my glasses when I play, so I can't see shit.  But the clubs are fun; when you're finished, you can walk out and hang out with the fans, have a beer with them and just chill, unlike the arenas where you are so detached from the fans.

STARPOLISH: When a band gets as big as Puddle of Mudd, is there a lot of pressure to play bigger venues, both from a revenue standpoint as well as from the point of view that you need to accommodate all your fans, and not just half of them? Or is this really decided by management?

UPCHURCH:  No, it wasn't any management issue, it was just us. We just finished doing that Korn tour, the last thing we did -- and try playing "She Hates Me"   in front of Korn fans. I mean, please.  We knew that if we played these small places, our fans were going to be there, they're going to be the first ones to go and get a ticket.  [The people who don't get to go] are the ones who are like, "Oh, Puddle of Mudd is in town tonight, I guess I'll go see them."  Our fans know way ahead: they're on the computer, they know when we're coming, they listen to the radio, and they're going to go out and get their tickets.

STARPOLISH: Do you get a different feedback from the crowd for a show like that?  Does that help energize you guys as performers?

UPCHURCH:  Oh, I love it. They know all the lyrics for all the songs, and when we do the new songs that they don't even know, they listen. You look at their faces -- they're listening. And I think that's important, because I remember when I used to go to shows and bands would play new songs for first time, at first you're a little weird about it because you don't know them. So you're listening to [the new songs], and then by the time you get the record, it's not like you're hearing them for the first time. You go, "Oh, yeah, I remember that song."  So it's not so hard to grasp that fans will feel like they were a part of something special, like, "I heard that song live already, and the album just came out."  So you try to give them something that they can enjoy, and give them a little preview.

Fan Contest

STARPOLISH: Were you involved at all with the Platinum Pass Contest (which allowed a grand prize winner and a guest to become a fifth member of the band for a week) that you guys did?

UPCHURCH:  Well, that was something that we were talking about, about giving the fans something more. Before the interview, you and I were talking someone remaking the Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory movie, and the reason they do that is because kids won't see that old movie, but if Johhny Depp is in it, then they'll go see it and not even know it's a remake. So the contest was just something exciting for a fan, and have them open it up and go, "Oh my god, I'm going to go hang out with the band now!"

STARPOLISH: Is that something that you guys thought up, or was it something the label came up with?

UPCHURCH:  That was our deal; the label isn't going to come up with an idea for them to spend more money.  We want these things, to get people interested.  I mean, we're not the first band to do this and we're not the last, but it's something to get fans involved and give somebody some treats and give somebody some love.  If I were to buy a record and had a ticket and knew that I was going to fly out and hang out with the band all day and all night and go to a free show, I'd be stoked like a motherfucker.

STARPOLISH: That's how I looked at it. I look at the bands that I totally loved when I was growing up, and imagined what it would have been like to be able to jump over that boundary between being a fan and being part of the band. That would have been an awesome thing.

UPCHURCH:  Yeah -- imagine if Pink Floyd would have done that!  I get to go hang out with Pink Floyd out in London?  You'd be shitting yourself.

STARPOLISH: It still sounds good to me! (laughing)

UPCHURCH:  (Laughing) I know, doesn't it?  I'm getting chills just thinking about it.