Rami Jaffee |
You'd think that holding down the keyboard slot in a band as popular as the Wallflowers would be enough for most artists. Not if you're Rami Jaffee, who along with solo artist Pete Yorn and former Five Easy Pieces frontman Marc Dauer, recently formed their own record label, Trampoline Records, in an effort to help expose music from talented but lesser-known artists to a wider audience.
Despite the celebrity status of its founders, Trampoline is no vanity project designed to shine a spotlight on their buds. Using the collective experience they acquired dealing with major labels and other components of the music business, Jaffee and his partners are looking to build a business that is not only viable commercially, but that is artistically valid and which treats artists fairly and respectfully.
Recently, Jaffee spoke with StarPolish editorial director James K. Willcox about the indie music scene, launching Trampoline Records, and the expectations that go along with a major-label deal.
Bouncing Into Being
STARPOLISH: I thought it would be good to start off talking about the idea behind Trampoline Records.
JAFFEE: It's been more than a year since the first [Trampoline] compilation came out, but the idea was there almost a year before that. Marc and Pete and I were just sitting around in Marc's studio, just listening to a bunch of artists' records. One band, Mini Bar, who we were recording, had a huge deal -- T-Bone Burnett produced the record -- and they got dropped before it came out. They were just doing some recording, because, of course, these kinds of songwriters are just non-stop; the [slowness] of the industry does not stop the writing process. So between them and Gingersol and a bunch of all these great bands that we were listening to, we were like, "God, we've got to do something about this." And it's still continuing, that everyone is dropping like flies off these labels, and so we [felt] like, "We have to make a home for these guys, we've got to do something." Our initial idea was to start a label and put out these records. So we spoke to lawyers and some other people, and basically there was so much red tape to do that...
STARPOLISH: Is it because of the contractual relationships that some of the artists already had?
JAFFEE: That's exactly part of the red tape, because even though their record isn't even in the store, they are signed to so-and-so publishing, and god forbid they put out a new record without paying [back] that million dollar record they made. So there was a lot of that mess, and beyond that, getting distribution deals for a single record. With distribution deals, I didn't know they would rather that you give them a package of CDs. But then you risk the problem of printing up hundreds or thousands of records for hundreds or thousands of dollars, sending them out, and having them sent back to you because they're not meeting their quota, because they're lost in some sort of new-artist bin. So many dangers have kind of caused us to veer away from our initial idea.
STARPOLISH: It's such a weird time in the industry, too, just in terms of everything changing and people being afraid to commit to anything. It's like the old model isn't working, but the new model hasn't fully emerged yet.
JAFFEE: Which is actually exciting for us. Whenever there's been something like this in the past -- obviously not exactly like this -- there have definitely been a lot of good vibes from that. So one day Marc thought, "I bet you that if we put out a compilation, and if we get one song that they are going to say, OK, let this song go' -- whether it's from an already recorded record or a newly recorded song -- and we begged and pleaded, especially since we'll put 18 songs on it and a normal record to be paid on publishing is 12 or 10, and all we're talking is pennies here, and this band is going nowhere, then if you're a publishing entity behind the band, you'll understand we're helping." We're not taking, I promise. Also, with the compilation, if we can put a better-known artist on it, and deal with the red tape on that end, then their fans can go to their message boards as see what those artists like, and what they're listening to. Their fans can ask, "What do you really stand behind?" So that's how we came up with the compilation, and we had a small success just from an idea of going out into the stores. And we landed an amazing deal with Barnes & Noble that just changed everything, from an idea to amazing idea, and they were totally down with the artist. And they were down with getting the point-of-purchase sale down to $9.99, which is another thing, because god, a new artist comes out and it's $18, or maybe $20, and even if it had a bonus girlfriend in the package it wouldn't be good. Barnes & Noble really took us to completion of this goal.
STARPOLISH: So that gave you both retail and online distribution?
JAFFEE: Well they did retail and online, and they let us sell it on our website, too. But the deal they gave us was great, with no returns -- they gave us a few bucks for CDs so they could sell it for $10, and they put little 8 x 10 posters by the cash register. And its not lost in some compilation bin with 1970's cover songs.
STARPOLISH: And did they play any of the tracks in the store?
JAFFEE: Oh yeah, it got in-store play; they just really went over the top.
Comparisons to Aware
STARPOLISH: When I was researching the start of Trampoline and how it came together, it reminded me a bit off Aware Records, which started out with compilations. Were you, well, aware of Aware, and did you look at that as a possible model for your label?
JAFFEE: What happened was, I wasn't aware of Aware, at least back in the day. I think someone mentioned to Marc along the way that we were doing what Aware does, and so of course you've got to Google that shit right away. Aware is amazing; they broke these artists the same way, with compilations in between. I don't know if they copyrighted the idea. But it just turned out that it was the same vibe behind our thing, and still is.
STARPOLISH: Another question I had was how the reality of actually launching the label compared to what a couple of guys sitting over a beer or two, saying, "We should launch a record label," imagined it would be?
Rami Jaffee |
JAFFEE: Oh boy, we did not know what was in store. We -- Pete, myself and Marc --kind of had an idea, because we had all been through record deals; Marc was in a band called Five Easy Pieces, which had a big ordeal going on in the late 90s. So we definitely knew it was going to get sticky at some point, so we just dove in and we got help left and right, because you are bound to come across someone in Los Angeles [who can help], whether it be an old friend who now owns a huge lawyer firm, or the Wallflowers' old manager [Andy Slater], who is president of Capitol Records. So we definitely had tons of help in that department, which made it a reality rather than it being "There's no way to even start this." So maybe there was a little bit of confidence to start dealing with the red tape. It does help, because we were in the Midwest somewhere, and didn't have the success we had under out belts to get this idea even past a beer at a bar. So God bless all that. And the idea is to give back, too, because you're blessed when you get somewhere in this industry. And it's just a shame that not everyone wants to give back. And on top of it, you look at the genre that were doing -- anything based in that singer-songwriter vein, we should all stand together and come at people in force instead of "I'm a singer/songwriter, and I just like myself." It's not about that.
STARPOLISH: Also, given the difficulty in the industry right now in terms of who's being signed and who's getting radio play, it just makes so much sense -- specifically in that genre -- to see that the competition isn't really the next singer/songwriter, it's an industry that's not really playing that kind of music or not giving it the kind of exposure it deserves.
JAFFEE: Exactly, and it comes around every once in a while with the Wallflowers, and even years before that. But at the same time, even in the off years, definitely you make your mark and keep whatever torch burning for anything that's good, period. It doesn't even have to be a genre-based, it just has to be quality-based. You get to the point where that's what's happening with the industry, and the big labels are just trying to search for any super-commercial song and they forget the rest of the record; they just want that one thing and they're charging $20 basically for that one song. The whole idea behind the A&R guy, his job should be to develop somebody and hope the fourth record is Born to Run. Imagine how many Born to Runs there could have been in these past decades.
STARPOLISH: Unfortunately, it seems like people are just trying to avoid making the big mistake that gets them fired.
JAFFEE: Of course; I saw that growing up in L.A. -- an A&R guy in the 80s who signed something big, and it got him a nice office and then he didn't do any more than wine and dine bands for the next two decades, because there's a chance of losing that office. So he's got an expense account and he's got his rent paid, but god forbid he sign anything, because he's risking his fucking livelihood. That's a shame. That's why any risk takers, even if it is someone who signed something totally campy and poppy, at least they did something; at least they came to someone with a suit and said, "You've got to sign this." God bless even that person; just take it to a different level to get quality out there, against all odds. That's a really good thing.
Label Experiences
STARPOLISH: A lot of the people we talk to are on independent labels, and you guys have a slightly different background, in that you're pretty well established. For example, the Wallflowers are signed to Interscope. I was curious how your experience dealing with a major label has affected the way you have decided to run your own label.
JAFFEE: It has, for sure. First things first, you don't spend all this money, or if there is money to spend, there are certain areas [where you should spend it]. To see almost a million dollars being spent on an album, on just the recording process -- and that's before marketing, the fancy videos and all that stuff -- you're gambling; you don't know it that it's MTV's taste that week. For sure I'm taking those things to heart and applying them to Trampoline. I built my studio, and I own it. Mark Dauer has a studio. I'm not even at a point yet where I'm going to say that I'll start charging, but [I can say to bands], "Just do it," because it's a pleasure to just do music. Obviously we're not going to sign someone who's not a pleasure to be with musically and personality-wise, but [our attitude] is "Just get the music done." That $5,000 should be hard spent, and with some artists it could be less. Now that we're getting a few little dollars here and there, we can hire publicists and get as many shows as we can where there are15 bands playing -- and yes, they're not all on our label yet, but at this point it's more about "Let's all stand together and attack." But some [bands] still think that a big record deal is out there to save their lives.
STARPOLISH: Because of the background of the label's three founders, I think it would be easy for people to dismiss Trampoline as a vanity project that's allowing you to get your friends' music out there. Is Trampoline being run as a business, and if so, does that mean sometimes you have to make tough decisions?
JAFFEE: Of course, tough decisions are there everyday, whether it's artwork on a compilation, or "my friend is a better lawyer and he'll do that contract it for $400." But we have a pretty good thing going on, which is there are three members of the board here and pretty much all three have to agree. And if there's a 2:1 vote going on, there should be a pretty darn good reason why. So that's kind of a savior, and sure there are times like, "I'm going to strangle you, no way is that guy going to go on the compilation," or, "I'm going to strangle you, no way is that artwork going to be a 60s poster," but those are quality issues. That's what's so great: when we're busting out a compilation with 18 songs on it, let's pick the ones that all three of us agree on, because there are probably 80 that all three of us agree on out of the 500 that we're holding in our hands. And sure, a few people get left on the shelf, but that's what were doing right now and it's really working out well.
STARPOLISH: Maybe we can talk a little bit about the functions of a label. Is Trampoline acting as a traditional label and providing those types of services, such as production help, advances, tour support, etc., for those artists who need it?
JAFFEE: Not really, it's definitely a new era. But the traditional concepts are there.
STARPOLISH: Is it a question of scale, in that you do some of these things, but just not at the same scale that the labels do?
JAFFEE: It's also the scale of the new mentality that's being built right now. A lot of our publicity is that hopefully, someone on the Wallflowers message board, or the Pete Yorn message board will learn of [the label's] website and buy the CD. Actually, on a small scale that is what happens. Once we go, "Wow, they're on our [label], and I produced it, Mark played guitar, Pete played drums," it's just "boom!" -- that website is hit hard! So it's not like we put in an ad in the LA Times, it's just a different scale; we do what we can.
STARPOLISH: Do you have a distribution deal currently?
JAFFEE: Barnes & Noble is the sole distribution for the compilations, but now that we just put out a record by this band, Nadine, from St. Louis, we need to take the next step. Every year or so, we're going to go up another step. At the same time, we can't get too big for our own shoes. The bigger you get, the more nasty suit decisions you need to make, so I'm definitely wary of that. But at the same time, why not step it up? You're only trying to do good. We'll see what happens. You can get a distribution from Red and then go, "OK, now they want us to give them 40,000 CDs that will cost us $40,000, which is the only $40,000 the whole label has today. So let's go print them and send them to Red, and they ship them to the stores." And what's happening now is, some of those stores are closing, god forbid, and it's even just the normal problem of how much they're going to sell anyway, because [the CDs are] in some "new artist" bin without fancy placement, which costs [a lot of money]. So they send them back, and now my bathroom is full of CDs, and the band is broke and I'm trying to call my aunt to ask her to buy 20 CDs as Christmas gifts and stocking stuffers, and the band starts complaining, "You guys promised." Our good excuse right now is that the whole machine is changing completely, and we're trying, and watching it form and following behind it very closely.
Compilations Only?
STARPOLISH: I know that you're releasing the compilation CDs -- are you also acting as a label for certain artists for their full-lengths as well?
JAFFEE: Yes, we just put out Nadine and we're signing The Hang Ups from Minneapolis. Yeah, we are getting in over our heads as we speak, but we have a good feeling about it.
STARPOLISH: Are the deals different with Trampoline? I heard that you're doing a 50/50 split with the artist, but I was wondering if in some instances you were licensing albums versus out right ownership of masters?
JAFFEE: We're open to it all. So far we're licensing the one record for these guys with a 50/50 split, but that can change per artist per deal. These two guys (The Hang Ups) came with the record done and they're phenomenal. The funny thing about Nadine is that it came through our P.O. box; I think that should be the big press release for us, because that's unheard of, especially in L.A. You think, "Oh, it's a vanity project, they're just hooking their buds up." But this first release, Nadine, we opened a box of 5,000 CDs and starting drinking tequila and listening to CDs on a boom box in Pete's kitchen. Sure, there were a few things where we were two bars into it and would then skip to the next song, and the CD became a coaster. But there are hidden jewels, too, and we found [Nadine], and we went," Oh my God," and four bars in we said, "I want to hear this whole song," and four songs in we said, "I want to hear the whole record." And after the whole record, cheers!
Rami Jaffee |
STARPOLISH: So when are you releasing that album?
JAFFEE: It's out in independent stores right now, and on our website and on their website. Nadine's record is called Strange Seasons, and it's awesome. And now we have The Hang Ups, who were featured on our first compilation, which was also fun to discover, because they're not our buddies; they're not from the LA scene. In fact, in the 90s Pete and Mark found one of their older records in a store by the artwork and loved it, and went to see them in a club in Santa Monica with four people; they were there on their little world tour. And now these bands have their own scenes going on in their own towns. For example, Nadine is huge in St. Louis, Chicago and Kansas City, and The Hang Ups are huge in Minneapolis, and people there are like, "We love those guys."
STARPOLISH: Some bands can have insane fan support in their hometowns. We're friends with a band in Pittsburgh called The Clarks, and when they play there they sell out every show and draw huge crowds.
JAFFEE: That's one thing I still see labels still doing, thank God, and that's a no-brainer. But there's always an A&R guy who goes," You know what? This band is already doing good work -- doing the work for us! -- and all we need to do is take credit." Those are, in essence, no-brainers for us, but again we do love them. The big labels probably think, "They don't have the music, but they've got the people." Again, it just excites us, and we just want to get that band's album out, or put it on the Wallflowers' site and say we like this. Greg, the Wallflowers' bass player, has a little part of the site called "Greg's Picks," and he's giving the band Television a resurgence. When we started breaking big in 96 or 97, there were kids on the website calling Dylan D-I-L-L-O-N, they didn't know -- and why should they" They're hip and cool and God forbid they listen to mom and dad. This label, hopefully, won't get in over its head. Now that we've have seen a bunch of contracts come though our computers, we know that "paragraph 4a, section II" must be in there, and we're not going to screw our friends over for any amount of money.
STARPOLISH: You talked a little about how labels have changed. It seems that increasingly, the A&R function is being fulfilled by smaller labels.
JAFFEE: Yes, exactly. If anything, they should look at it that way anyways, because all of a sudden it's not music people, it's suits -- so who should they look to? I think they do that already with some producers. There aren't many great records being made anyways.
STARPOLISH: Aware fulfills that function for Sony.
JAFFEE: Sure exactly. You can use certain departments of theirs that we don't want to get filthy in. You get a good distribution; you get a good FedEx guy.
Trampoline Reviews
STARPOLISH: I also noticed that you are starting to do some live shows under the Trampoline name. Is the idea just a synergistic way to expose new artists and help bump up CD sales?
JAFFEE: It's everything. It exposes [the bands] to this fantastic alliance of musicians, and no one is doing that. The only time you see anything like that is in a rap video, and those two people met on a set. The funny thing is that it originated in more of a rock n' roll setting, or Stax soul reviews, where Booker T and the MG's were the house band for Otis, and Sam and Dave. Even the whole [posture] of Stax was, "Look, were coming to town and we'll make it affordable because the same band is backing everybody, and we're all [traveling] on a school bus -- but you're going to see eight bands tonight, and you're going to go, Holy Shit!'"
STARPOLISH: I know that you did a show at the House of Blues in L.A. -- are the love shows going to be L.A.-centric, or are you going to actually set up a tour?
JAFFEE: Here's the thing -- that's what we planned to do, but we have to make sure we can afford it. That idea, Trampoline Records Review, was there from day one. We can do it here because we're based here or can fly in, and with the few thousand dollars we'll make at the House of Blues we can get Nadine and the Hang Ups over here and rent some back line and get a tour manager so we can get 12 bands on and off.
STARPOLISH: I see that you're offering a CD of the show. Was that a soundboard recording?
JAFFEE: No, it was an ADAT in the back that the House of Blues has installed; they charge us a few grand, it's unbelievable. And the DVD is coming out and it's phenomenal -- it's filmed really well and it sounds just stellar. And were going to get that on the site immediately. [Note: the DVD, Live from Los Angeles: The First Waltz, is now available at the Trampoline Records website -- Ed.]
STARPOLISH: When you came out with the first compilation, were you happy with the sales part of it? Was it meet your expectations?
JAFFEE: I was happy that there was artwork and it was shrink-wrapped (laughs). I was so sick of toasting the little levels of stepping into the future, but yeah I was happy. I was also like, Wait, Pete Yorn is on the road right now going gold, and we can't even sell more than $4,000?. But did we have a publicist? No. Did we tour the damn thing? No. And there are reasons why we couldn't afford the publicist.
STARPOLISH: But I imagine that the key is keeping your costs in line with what you expect you'll be able to bring in.
JAFFEE: It's so true. Money talks, we all know that, but you have to put it all in the right spots. Barnes & Noble did a great deal, but they also said they would like 10,000 CDs, and I said, "Oh boy, $10,000." So I fished that out of my account and prayed I would get it back, and the minute it went over we put it into an ad for the House of Blues shows, so that $400 is gone. Now were moving out, we have more sales, and gosh, we might even look into maybe a corporate connection...
STARPOLISH: A sponsorship?
JAFFEE: Yeah, just give us a bus. Someone ran into Matthew Sweet before this whole Thorns thing took off and asked him, "What are you doing, how are you making money, what the hell are you doing? " And he said, "Well, I'm recording, and I do a few parties for [a liquor company] throughout the year and they give me a [fairly sizeable] check." So he gets to take [that money] and go do a West Coast tour -- it's all about shoveling the money into whatever direction [you need to go in] and keeping yourself doing shows. I mean, god, with big labels, you're doing shows just to make the album sell. I want to get the album out there so we can go do show and give people the troubadour town effect.
Playing Live
STARPOLISH: Obviously, the reality for most of the artists on StarPolish is that the money is going to come from live shows and not from CDs. As a result, most of them see CDs as a marketing expense; it gives them a reason to go on tour, and they want to break even or make a little money on the CDs, but mostly they want people to go to shows and buy a T-shirt and get the merch. I remember doing an interview with Richard Thompson when he was leaving Capitol and he said he never made a cent on an album, but that he had a really loyal fan base who comes to see him every time he's in town, and a bunch of them buy his CD and he makes a nice living -- but it's not because of Capitol, because hell never make back the advance from three albums ago.
JAFFEE: It's the same with the Wallflowers now; with the albums with the fancy budgets and the lunches and god knows what else is being added on that we can't see, we have to sell five million records. But they put it in the stores and that's one market, and we go out getting to play for fans who really want to hear the songs.
STARPOLISH: That changes the kind of venues you play, and for a lot of people it's way more rewarding.
JAFFEE: That's exactly what we found out. We used to play sheds and sure, those same 1,000 people are in the front -- the kids who really want to hear every b-side and everything -- but in the back they're going to get a beer until they hear "Heroes" or "One Headlight," the singles. I don't care too much for that; if that's the make or break to get another few grand a night, I'd rather go into a club and get everyone to love each note.
STARPOLISH: I would rather pay $85 at a club then $85 at Shea Stadium, where you have to watch the show on the Jumbotron and not really hear it. I think that a lot of fans respond to those kind of shows, where you're playing for your true fans. And they're the ones who will go home with the T-shirt, and the next time you come around they'll be wearing it to let other people know that didn't just come on board the bandwagon.
JAFFEE: The good thing about Trampoline [Records] is that we have a lot of semi-well-known artists that are going to go back-to-back for these artists, so when we do a Trampoline Tour we will try to get on one leg of the Wallflowers [tour], or with Pete or Liz Phair or Minnie Driver, something that's going to make people's eyebrows pop up, and we come to town and do the rest. And those are amazing artists, as well. And there's no reason why Jakob [Dylan] or Pete won't want to go out and have a blast for a few weeks.
STARPOLISH: I'm a pretty big Pete Droge fan, and I saw that the Thorns are doing their headlining tour, and then they're off to be the supporting act for John Mayer -- and I couldn't help but think there's almost something backwards about that order.
JAFFEE: Oh, trust me -- I've seen it everywhere. A long time ago I saw a show advertising Dave Matthews, and in tiny writing it said, "the Neville Brothers," and I thought, "What is that?" I was just going over that with Jakob, because the Counting Crows drew these bunch of shows at the end of the year, 10 nights at the Warfield [in San Francisco], and four nights at the Wiltern in L.A. Our booking agent asked if we wanted to open up those shows, and we said; "We're off tour, we'd love to; if anything, some of those fans might not even remember us." You know, it's going to say the Wallflowers are opening, and some people will have the same idea in their head, just like I did when it said "Neville Brothers." But it's all perspective.
Rami Jaffee |
STARPOLISH: I was just having this conversation with someone about Chris Whitley. The first time I saw him he was headlining at Wetlands in New York, and the opening act was a band from Virginia called the Dave Matthews Band.
JAFFEE: By the same token, to see Dave Matthews taking out the Neville Brothers, god bless him, because there is some kid looking at the poster and going, "the Nee-ville Brothers?" He would have never known about them, so Dave did them an amazing thing. So forget the small print -- as long as it's the right idea, I'm down for it.
STARPOLISH: It does help expose music by older artists to a whole different generation. And thankfully, there are some artists who feel an obligation to expose their heroes to a new fan base. Someone like Bonnie Raitt, for example, would constantly talk about Ruth Brown.
JAFFEE: The same thing happened to us; we were headlining the Growing Up Jazz Fest down in New Orleans, and guess who's was opening up for us: The Meters! The only thing worse would've been Dr. John. I was like, "Are you kidding me?" And the festival people said that's how they get the kids going there. And once they're there, they'll get turned on to the Meters and some amazing music. So in a way it's wrong, but in another way it's right, because the Meters may get some new fans..
