STARPOLISH: But it seems like they let the lyrics stay intact.  It doesn't seem like anyone got freaked out over the "making love to her" line in "Damn," or anything like that.

HAWKINS: I think ultimately, that's why they signed me.  They always kept saying, "You're the real thing; you're a real writer."  And they would compare me to some really great writers, and I always felt like that's why thats been my bottom line.

And the only time I ever felt like I started to get myself across again was when I started touring without the record company's support, and that's kind of when I met Gigi Gaston, who made The Cream Will Rise[a documentary chronicling Hawkins 1996 tour].  And in that film, I'm definitely who I am.  I think I come across as the same person who people saw in the beginning.  But that's because Sony had basically ignored me for so long, and I had been out on the road and touring Europe, that that's when I got back to myself again.

The Cracker Conscription

STARPOLISH: Can we jump forward to the battle of the banjo on "Lose Your Way?" The thing that amazed me about that -- and I was kind of aware of that whole drama as it was unfolding -- was how you marshaled your fans into action, how the "Cracker Army" got built up.  Could you tell StarPolish about that? It was the best street team collective response I've ever seen.

HAWKINS: Me, too. And I'm going to actually have to publish a book with their emails, because their emails are so intelligent and so witty.  They're so aware -- these people from all over the world.

How it happened was this: I was in Florida, at the Florida Film Festival, because The Cream Will Rise was showing there. And they wanted me to do a Q&A after the film.   Sony wouldn't release my third record -- I was still on Sony -- and they wouldn't release it because of the banjo on "Lose Your Way."  They were trying to figure out a way to cut the song without the banjo.  That's a whole other story.  But anyway, since they had ignored me again up to that point, I produced the album -- I didn't produce the album because I was a megalomaniac, I produced it because they didn't give me any producers, and I had to make the album!

But anyway, the long story short is that I'm out at the film festival and I called my A&R guy at Sony and I said, "Can I play a few tracks off this album that you won't release?"  He said, "Sure," 'cause he was kind of behind me.  So I played "Lose Your Way" on this pop station, 95.5 Star-something.  And people started calling in -- the phones literally rang off the hook because people loved the song.  And they all said, "We love your lyrics.  We love this banjo. It's so great that you're back,"  because people hadn't heard from me since "As I Lay Me Down."  And so I said to Janice, who was my driver -- she now runs my website -- I said, "Janice, do you know anything about the Internet?"  Because I didn't.  She said, "Yeah."  I [asked], "Can you type in somewhere that if anyone has heard my record, Timbre-- cause I knew it was being auctioned on eBay for $500 -- and they like it to please email Sony and tell them that they like the banjo, or just tell them their feelings about the fact that they wont release the record."  They got 2,000 emails immediately.  All over the world -- the first guy was from Finland, [and] he emailed and said, "I'll shove the cracker up Sony's ass!"  I loved it!  So I named it the Cracker Army.  They were so emphatic!  And they were from everywhere -- from Singapore, from Belgium!  In fact, most of them were from around the world, not even from America.

So what happened was, it kind of was born of itself, because I put in this request and I didn't even know how to do the Internet.  Believe me, I didn't even know there were websites out there about me -- I later found out there were many -- but I didn't have any clue.  So I typed in that simple request -- or Janice did, rather -- and all these people responded.  And Sony shut down their email system, and they werescreamingat me to stop these people. And I said, "I don't even know who these people are!"  I didn't know they were out there!  So then what happened was, I said, "Janice, we've gotta start a website."  And of course Sony had a big problem with that, because I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to!

STARPOLISH: Was it part of the contract that they owned your URL, sophiebhawkins.com?

HAWKINS:Yes it was.  It wasn't in any contract with any artist, and I was the first artist.  Because of the response to that request, Sony then put it in their contracts that no artist could have their own website, and they couldn't even have their name as a website.  So they wouldn't give me sophiebhawkins.  We had a big fight over that.  And actually, when I finally sued them and got off the label, [it was] the last thing that they would give me. It took them two years to give me back my name -- they gave me my masters back before they gave me my name back!  And that was really incredible of them.  It's really incredible when you think about it.  And so because of that, now they have in their contracts that no artist can have their own website with their name on it.

Buying Back An Album

STARPOLISH: What was the process of buying the album [Timbre] back?  Was it a prolonged lawsuit?  How long did it take for you to have it under your own control again and be able to put it out onTrumpet Swan?

HAWKINS: That's a good question... for all those people out there who are signing, the hardest thing is that really, ultimately, every decision has to come from you, and you'll always make it in the dark because no one in the business will tell you the truth.  So you have to guess at everything, and you have to hope that your guess is correct.  So basically, I played every avenue to try and mend the relationship with Sony.  ForyearsI was doing that.  And then I finally made the decision -- there was one deciding moment, too long to go into what it was, but it was one deciding moment -- and then I just told Gigi Gaston, who wasn't even my manager at the time -- she was still just a filmmaker -- I called her up and I said, "I'm going to sue Sony to get my masters back."  So she recommended a lawyer, and the minute that lawyer called them, they were... I think they were so worried about what I could dredge up, that they said, "She can have her masters, and she can walk away."

But it did take a year and a half of litigation deciding under what conditions I could re-record my old stuff, [and] how much they were going to get paid back for the masters, because they felt they'd already put the money into making the records and whatnot.  So those things took about a year and a half.

STARPOLISH: That was from late '99 to early 2001?

HAWKINS:Yes, exactly. I never thought they would actually sign off, 'cause every time we were just about to sign off there'd be another thing. One more thing!  I thought, "They're doing this on purpose," because I had been used to it.  For so many years, I was really quite cynical that I would ever be free again to do anything.  They had me for eight albums, so for me to get off was really kind of amazing.  And look what happened to people like George Michael!  People really don't usually get off their label, and they don't usually walk away and keep going from that.  It's very much of a struggle.  But I was kind of relieved, and I was kind of sad, because I thought I [might never] work again.  I knew I could do other things, like write novels and whatever -- not that I would think that I'd be good at it, but I was doing that; that's what I actually did in between, was write a novel.  I was told not to go out and perform by my lawyers.  I was told to do everything to make it look like I was dead, because that would make Sony kind of go easy on me.

So I did that.  I totally went into a cave, and I played cello, and I wrote a novel.  I couldn't record; that was it, because they would own everything that I recorded while I was still kind of in that contractual mess.  I had to really just change my lifestyle.  And it was really good for me; it made me -- I can't tell you what I went through -- it made me very strong to make that decision.  I had to decide, I'm willing to never be public again.  I'm willing to never do this, because they'll own everything if they don't let me off.

They really could have not let me off, and I don't know why I got lucky.  They could have fought me 'til I was poor; they could have fought me 'til I had zero dollars left.  And they didn't!  I mean, it did cost me a lot of money, but I survived it.

The Indie Route

STARPOLISH: So where are you now, label-wise?  Totally independent, or are you signed to Rykodisc in some fashion?

HAWKINS: I'm not signed to Rykodisc, because after that album got released, it's kind of like we had done it, and it wasn't something I wanted to go into again.  That was another situation where I didn't totally own my masters.  It was better -- it was so much better than Sony, and I had so much fun -- but, I thought, for the amount of money that they're getting and the little that I'm getting back, I would be better off on my own, actually.  And then what they offered me to re-record my next record was just like,come on, guys --Icould afford that.  And I should, because if they re going to give me that little money, I'll just do it myself and make all the money back. And own my masters and blah blah blah.  So I parted with Ryko, just because it wasn't business-wise very smart.  They're very nice people, though.

I've been recording ever since... the minute I got off Sony I started writing again, recording a tremendous amount of new songs -- all demo'd, and some of them are actually produced in the final fashion, you know, where they could be on a record.  Probably all of them are much better than my old demos, just because I've gotten so into it, and having so much more fun with it, and my studio is better in my house.

But I've had a very stressful time recently, because big labels have been interested and I've had to make this decision.  Because I know what can happen -- they can be really interested in you, and they can think that you have a lot of hits, which they're saying, "Oh, you have a lot of hits," and I know that I do.  However, what does that mean in this marketplace?  Does it mean [they will] release it and give it two weeks?  Two months?  If it doesn't work at AC, are they going to try it at AAA?  Are they going to go straight to pop, and if it burns out, are they going to put in more money?  Because what happens is, if you're not a new artist at one of those big labels, it can be very difficult.  They can turn on you so fast, and it's not personal -- but of course it feels personal.

STARPOLISH: It certainly seems like having the patience to go two or three singles deep to find the one that clicks has become kind of a nonexistent concept.

HAWKINS: No, and it's less and less, and everybody will tell me that.  Even the big labels have said that.  And they're saying... I've never gotten so much support, to be honest with you, in the industry than I have [lately], because I think the songs right now that I've written, and being off Sony, and going through what I've gone through and survived, I think there's a mixture of respect and they just really like the new music.  But they will be very candid with me about whether they feel that if there are three people at a company who support me, what will it mean if not everyone supports me?  What will it mean if there are only three people who support me?

Now, a lot of people would be really happy with the kind of interest that I've gotten, but see, since I've been through it, its kind of like a marriage.  It's sort of like I've been through a really difficult marriage and I've been divorced.  So now, the next person who asks me to marry them, I'm so much more dubious because I have children now.  And I know what it means to my children.  And I know what it means if my children get caught in a lawsuit, or they're not supported, or whatever goes on, or [that] I'm drained, or I'm asked to do things that arent right. And I'm having those same old battles.  So the point of the matter is, with my children who I love so much -- they're my songs, you know? -- and also the way I live my life has gotten so simple, it's like the way it was I was before I was signed, and the way I've always tried to maintain.  It's really simple: it's all about my work, and my relationships and showing up and doing a great job.  And becoming a better musician, a better singer, and a better writer and all that.

So my decision is really, [that] I want to own my masters.  Because no matter what -- and I will say this to all the people out there -- you can't get a big enough advance to replace the fact that you own your masters at the end of the day.  And no one will let you own your masters if you sign with a label.  And they can tie them up forever -- well, it feels like forever.  In this business, if you miss one chance to be in a movie because your record company says "No" because they own the masters, you're screwed!  So my feeling is that if people could make deals -- and there's plenty of places out there that will make deals with you, to give you the money to make the album, and they'll give you the money to promote it to radio,but you'llown your masters -- it won't be as much money, and will be much more grassroots, but to me, if you can become successful that way, then I think you're learning a better lesson.  And you're going to be more confident.

Yes, you want to be approved of, and yes, you want to be offered the deals, but at the end of the day, what's more important?  And to me, I guess, owning my masters is extremely important.  Because I have so many opportunities, and I've created them over the years -- [for example,] dance records in different countries.  Doing a dance record in Germany, as I'm doing right now -- it's a phenomenal thing to do!  First of all, it's really fun -- you get to work with the most talented remixers, you get to makesomuch money; and then you can do one in France with a whole bunch of other musicians and remixers!  And you can't do that if you're on a big label!  They won't let you!  And if they do let you, you re not going to see the money and you re not going to have the fun because it will be all controlled. I don t know anybody who gets all those opportunities at big labels.

STARPOLISH: What about the challenges of promotion, distribution, getting placement in record stores, and getting on the radio?

HAWKINS: That's going to be hard, even at a big label.  Look what happened to me at Sony.  I had "Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover" -- I mean, that's a damn big single.  It's still big; my royalty checks are humongous from that still, from the radio, 'cause I wrote it.  Well, you can never find my records in stores.  Even [with] the first record that was a common complaint.  When Whaler came out, they weren't even going to release the record, even after all that success and all that critical acclaim.  They weren't going to release the record because they thought it was too European.  And fine -- that's a taste call, whatever.  Well, the records were never in stores; it took me four years to break that single.  I had to be totally successful in Europe first.  They didn't want to hear about me in America.  And when I finally came back to America, it was like, "What took you so long?" What took me so long?  No one would release it!  So everyone has to know this: they're going to have the same struggles.  You're not guaranteed placement in stores.  They might ship your record -- you can be on a big label, they can ship your record,  [but if] the stores dont sell fast enough, they'll ship it right the fuck back.  And you know what the record company will do?  They'll say its your fault, and they won't put one more dime into promotion.  Thats the saddest thing in the world.  Because when you're on your own, then you can find new ways, you can reinvent yourself, you can rekindle it, you can get on a tour, you can do anything.  You can beg a record store to put up your poster.  But not when youre on a big label.

Now, big labels might be changing -- I haven't been on one, you know, for two years -- so I don't want to totally turn people off.  But if you dont get the red-carpet treatment, if you don't get millions of dollars put into you -- and it takes that, and that's the sad thing now.  Look at the Mariah Carey story.  People just have to look at what's going on.  Mariah -- what a shock!  How could they pay her that much money to get rid of her?  That just shows you what a losing game it is.

The Numbers Game

STARPOLISH: I think between that, and some of the issues that have come to light with developments such as the Recording Artists Coalition, at the very least there seems to be a reassessment of priorities.  My own hunch is that there's going to be a movement toward providing at least minimal support for the kind of artists who aren't going to sell 10 million albums, but who are going to sell a steady 100,000 -- the Aimee Manns and the Wilcos.

HAWKINS: And do you know how much money that is?  Do you know how rich you are if you sell that much?  If you sell 100,000 records as a new artist, and you're in partnership with, like, an ArtistDirect and they're taking 50 percent, and they've put out the money -- say, they've put out $200,000 so that you make the record and promote it, and that's a lot for a new artist -- you can definitely make a dent.  So once they recoup their $200,000, do you know how much money you will make if you're making half of those profits?  You'll be really rich!  And I think people should -- maybe it comes down to doing the math.  If you call an ArtistDirect -- and I don't know if they'll talk to just anybody -- but I had a meeting with them, and I thought, they're really clear.  They printed out one sheet: [with] exactly how much it costs to print CDs, everything from the distribution to what happens if they send your record back.  They include all of that.  And they show you how much they'll put into you based on your sales, and then they'll show you how much you will make if you sell a minimum of, say, 10,000, then 20,000 then 30,000.  If you do the math and say, "Well now, if I sold 30,000 on my own, how much would I make?" -- you [can] figure it out.  I recommend [that] everybody go to whomever it is who prints up your thing [and] figure out how much it costs.  How much will it cost to be on the road?  Can you get a gig where you can sell your CDs?  How many do you think you can sell?  If you can sell 30,000 records in a year and you're on your own, think how much money you'll be making.  Youll probably be making $10 a CD --thats three hundred fucking thousand dollars!

People should do that!  Do you know that Jonatha Brooke is doing that?  And she's doing well.  She's sold already, as of yesterday, as many or more records than when she was signed on her first album alone.  And she's pocketing that!

STARPOLISH:  And I know that Grant-Lee Philips and Melissa Ferrick are doing the same thing through CD Baby.

HAWKINS: Exactly!  And there's so many ways now!  You know, if you want to be famous -- fame isn't worth anything anymore.  It used to be.  And I understand the idea of what it would be [like] to be known, and to be famous.  But I have to say, it doesn't mean anything anymore.  The crappiest, cheapest, shittiest artists -- I won't even call them artists -- are so famous, and the greatest people are having the hardest time putting out records.  Obviously, its a reversal.  People have to just really think about it -- there's the lifestyle, how much work you're willing to put into promoting yourself, and then there's how much money you're going to get back, and what's it all worth at the end of the day.  And you know what?  None of this even means that you're even a good or a bad artist.  None of it is a value judgment... the only thing that shows, I think, is if people are really still listening to you when you're dead. You don't know your impact in your lifetime, I don't think.  There's been so many popular things that 20 or 30 years later, people could give a flying fuck about.  Then there have been things... Van Gogh can't get an opening, or whatever, and everybody else is more famous -- and look what happens over time.

But that shouldn't even concern us.  We're not in control of that.  We just have to do our work, and I think that's the thing about this interview is, like, "How do you do your work?"  "What's going to make you want to do it," as opposed to whats going to turn you into a bitchy creep? 

"Whats going to fulfill you?"

For the latest information about Sophie B. Hawkins -- and to check her current tour schedule, hear music samples or purchase CDs -- visit her website at http://www.sophiebhawkins.com.